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Mark Hughes, the new Joe Mercer? (Don't laugh.)
In the season 1966/67 when Joe Mercer had been our manager for around two years these were the statistics:
Up to mid February:
Won 8
Lost 11
Draw 9
Played 28 - Points 33 (adapted to the 3 points for a win.)
This season, after Mark Hughes has been in the job around eight months:
Won 9
Lost 12
Draw 4
Played 25 - Points 31
A very similar topsy turvy season with some good wins but a lot of defeats.
Joe had done well to get us promotion in the previous year but was obviously still very much rebuilding his team and we were struggling to adapt. A more difficult job for Joe undoubtably, as he was more or less building from scratch. But, in fairness, he'd had much more time than Hughes and had spent quite a bit of money just as Sparky has.
So what's your point Spike i hear you say?
Well....in today's times Joe could have easily been on the edge of the sack for the performances that 66/67 season, after expectations had run high from the previous year's positive outcome, just as many believe Hughes is heading for the chop right now.
Who in their right mind would have predicted, without the benefit of knowing what we know now about Mercer/Alison, that they would have taken us on to win the league the following season and then go on to win trophy after trophy?
So...my point is....Could Hughes do the same? (I can hear most of you laughing from here.)
But seriously....outrageous though that statement seems right now, you just never know do you? Things can change very quickly in football it seems, if you give a bloke a bit of time.
Spike
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25 comments
Comment from: Blue Tones [Visitor]
Absolutly no comparison whatsoever, Mercer was in a newly promoted side with very little money to spend. Hughes is in charge of a side that has now been in the premiership for 7 or 8 solid seasons that has had around 150 million invested into the squad in the last 2 years. We are playing poorly away from home even against Championship quality sides like Stoke with 10 men, totally inexcusable.
18/02/09 @ 15:55
Comment from: spike [Member] 
I think you'll find Mercer had already spent a lot of money Blue Tones, or at least the equivalent of what was then a lot of money.
And i'm shocked. It's not like you to just dismiss statistics and facts out of hand.
And i'm shocked. It's not like you to just dismiss statistics and facts out of hand.
18/02/09 @ 16:02
Comment from: Blue Tones [Visitor]
Those statistics prove absolutly nothing. The teams and competition is totally different as are the circumstances. The squad we have on paper is better then most in the premiership, the fact the manager can't motivate his players to play tells the whole story.
18/02/09 @ 16:12
Comment from: Colinski [Visitor]
I happen to agree 100% Spike. I have no doubts that Hughes will build for us a terrifically competitive side given time to do so. I`ve stated as much on other forums that the number of new faces throughout City needs to be factored in before only results can be judged. If by this time next year Hughes in in a similar position, then my attitude will probably start to change, but for now i`m happy with the job he`s doing.
18/02/09 @ 16:14
Comment from: hmmmmm im not sure [Visitor]
Mercer did not spend close to the equivalent of what Hughes has spent and also the team was on the bk of a promotion, I think this article just highlights how much the current personal are under performin. Also never ever disrespect the great Joe Mercer by even tryin to compare him to Mark Hughes until he has proven himself worthy. But i do know what you are getting that.
18/02/09 @ 16:17
Comment from: Bluemoaner [Visitor]
Correct me if I am wrong but all Spike is trying to get at is that if Joe Mercer was managing City now with a similar record to that of MH he too would have been under tremendous pressure and rightly or wrongly he is saying we should judge him at the same time next year !? Old red nose was on the verge before Mark Bobbins headed the winner at Forest and the rest is unfortunately history ! Maybe we could show the tiniest bit more patience for another 12 months considering the previous 33 years of dirge (with the odd exception of course !) we have put up with and that most definitely includes Pearce and Svens reigns. Who knows what might happen on a hot evening in Istanbul come May !!!!
18/02/09 @ 16:30
Comment from: Bluenose [Visitor]
Mercer had 9 draws - nowadays that wouldn't be too good but when it was 2 points a win a draw was worth more than it is now. His side had just been promoted also. If you look at just the stats you can compare Hughes to 1000's of managers but it doesn't change the fact that the side should be performing better. I'm of the opinion he needs another full season after this before I judge him. To compare him to Mercer though is ludicrous.
18/02/09 @ 16:30
Comment from: spike [Member]
I would never disrespect Mercer. I loved him. He was a wonderful man and our greatest ever manager by far.
I think we need to take the emotional side of the comparison away though if that is possible.
Joe - the greatest who won loads after that season.
Mark - An ex red who has started quite poorly.
It's understandable that people will react in a negative knee jerk way to the comparison.
But look at the facts that i present. Joe's second full season was as bad as Mark's first one. They were both re-building a team in the top flight of football.
The statistics don't lie.
My comparison is not a slight on the great Joe Mercer, i'm trying to say that as awful as things seem right now, Hughes may just pull it off if we give him time to implement his long term strategy.
I think we need to take the emotional side of the comparison away though if that is possible.
Joe - the greatest who won loads after that season.
Mark - An ex red who has started quite poorly.
It's understandable that people will react in a negative knee jerk way to the comparison.
But look at the facts that i present. Joe's second full season was as bad as Mark's first one. They were both re-building a team in the top flight of football.
The statistics don't lie.
My comparison is not a slight on the great Joe Mercer, i'm trying to say that as awful as things seem right now, Hughes may just pull it off if we give him time to implement his long term strategy.
18/02/09 @ 16:33
Comment from: newsoftheblues [Visitor]
it's a generaly comparision which fails to deliver on many factors.
Mercer never had the the same resources as Hughes, nor did he fail to get performances out of world class players. Football in 66 was very different to modern day, less ego, money and foreign stars.
The situation is compeltley different, Football is extremly more important in terms of finance value. Failure is dangerous in financial terms. The facts out, he has spent heavily and we havnt improved on the pitch. The owners have invested heavily and will want results pretty quickly. Hughes hasnt earned the luxery of patients as the likes of MON did at villa.
Collinksi . i dont know how you can be happy with Hughes performance so far, and how you can justify giving him time,..in hope that we might one day become a good side. An improved side shouldnt decline in quality on the pitch.
Keeping a manager becasue we have had a bad past, isnt a good enough excuse, He has to earn his position and show he can improve the side. So far he has failed. There must be a big improvment as the season closes
There have been plenty of managers who have been given time and have failed. Should we have kept Frank Clarke?
Mercer never had the the same resources as Hughes, nor did he fail to get performances out of world class players. Football in 66 was very different to modern day, less ego, money and foreign stars.
The situation is compeltley different, Football is extremly more important in terms of finance value. Failure is dangerous in financial terms. The facts out, he has spent heavily and we havnt improved on the pitch. The owners have invested heavily and will want results pretty quickly. Hughes hasnt earned the luxery of patients as the likes of MON did at villa.
Collinksi . i dont know how you can be happy with Hughes performance so far, and how you can justify giving him time,..in hope that we might one day become a good side. An improved side shouldnt decline in quality on the pitch.
Keeping a manager becasue we have had a bad past, isnt a good enough excuse, He has to earn his position and show he can improve the side. So far he has failed. There must be a big improvment as the season closes
There have been plenty of managers who have been given time and have failed. Should we have kept Frank Clarke?
18/02/09 @ 16:46
Comment from: Blue Tones [Visitor]
but the statistics do lie, at least in the form you have presented them. Like the earlier poster has said a draw is half of a win in those days wheras now it is only a third. That makes a massive difference. Also if we just look at his away form then that is a sackable offence on its own imo.
18/02/09 @ 16:47
Comment from: spike [Member]
Blue Tones - Joe's team lost nine away games in that period i mention.
Our away form then was a very similar problem for us.
Our away form then was a very similar problem for us.
18/02/09 @ 16:54
Comment from: Phil The Blue [Visitor]
I happen to think that Hughes will, given time, produce outstanding success.
Regarding Mercer, I can speak with some authority since I remember the times well. Mercer's two previous management positions were at Sheffield United and Aston Villa. They both sacked him. Mercer's first signing was striker Ralph Brand from Glasgow Rangers (£25,000). I remember the newspaper headline "City sign Rangers marksman". He was rubbish. The second signing was Summerbee (£35,000) then Johnny Crossan (£25,000). Others quickly followed: Colin Bell (£45,000); Francis Lee (£60,000); Tony Coleman (£17,000. Other signings in that short period included among others Tony Book, George Heslop, and Bobby Owen. All in all, with transfer values as they were then, Mercer spent a lot, a real lot, of money. Fortunately a great many were shrewd choices but some were failures (Brand and Owen spring to mind). My favourite at the time (Crossan) was soon sold on to Sunderland.
Leave Hughes alone, he will need at least a couple of years. If the club sack him we will win another "cup for a cock-up".
Regarding Mercer, I can speak with some authority since I remember the times well. Mercer's two previous management positions were at Sheffield United and Aston Villa. They both sacked him. Mercer's first signing was striker Ralph Brand from Glasgow Rangers (£25,000). I remember the newspaper headline "City sign Rangers marksman". He was rubbish. The second signing was Summerbee (£35,000) then Johnny Crossan (£25,000). Others quickly followed: Colin Bell (£45,000); Francis Lee (£60,000); Tony Coleman (£17,000. Other signings in that short period included among others Tony Book, George Heslop, and Bobby Owen. All in all, with transfer values as they were then, Mercer spent a lot, a real lot, of money. Fortunately a great many were shrewd choices but some were failures (Brand and Owen spring to mind). My favourite at the time (Crossan) was soon sold on to Sunderland.
Leave Hughes alone, he will need at least a couple of years. If the club sack him we will win another "cup for a cock-up".
18/02/09 @ 16:54
Comment from: Blue Tit [Visitor]
Times are different yes but the main point is that Hughes has not yet had enough time to develop an effective team. I know lots of money has been spent & results have been poor but the need for sustained change at City is quite clear and has been for a while now; this short termism is ludicrous. I agree that he needs at least another season. After all, it took Joe the best part of 3 years to win the league ( I was at St James Park to witness it!) - no City manager is likely to replicate that!
18/02/09 @ 16:55
Comment from: spike [Member]
A lot of strong opinions there News of the Blues which i respect.
I don't necessarily agree with them all though.
As unpalatable as it seems, the facts remain i'm afraid.
I don't necessarily agree with them all though.
As unpalatable as it seems, the facts remain i'm afraid.
18/02/09 @ 16:59
Comment from: OB1 [Visitor]
Mercer had Big Mal - perhaps the greatest coach ever.
Hughes has the Tafia.
Hughes has the Tafia.
18/02/09 @ 18:16
Comment from: Wigan Blue [Visitor]
At least I gave you food for thought Spike! OK then. City have 13 matches left. At the corresponding time in the 66/67 season we had 15. Of which we won 4, drew 7 and lost 4. Joe Mercer's team showed an impressive improvement in form following the Leeds cup defeat though, losing only one of their final 8 matches.
So are you predicting that we are going to be inspired to a similar run-in, with all the players giving themselves a good shake, with MH rising to the challenge and devising game plans that will ensure 15 points in the bag by the end of the season?
Personally I think we'll struggle to achieve that. But of course you may be right. Starting with a draw on Sunday maybe...?
So are you predicting that we are going to be inspired to a similar run-in, with all the players giving themselves a good shake, with MH rising to the challenge and devising game plans that will ensure 15 points in the bag by the end of the season?
Personally I think we'll struggle to achieve that. But of course you may be right. Starting with a draw on Sunday maybe...?
18/02/09 @ 19:19
Comment from: deary me [Visitor]
malcolm allison did not make mercer the great manager he was ob1 so shut up u silly billy and wigan blue if u dont think we can get 15 points by the end of the season i take it ur gettin ur map of championship grounds out bcoz if wedont get 15 points thats where we will be.
18/02/09 @ 19:33
Comment from: Wigan Blue [Visitor]
Deary Me
Exactly. It would be nice to think we could get 5 wins. But the way he has us playing at the moment, I can't even see where the next draw is coming from...
Exactly. It would be nice to think we could get 5 wins. But the way he has us playing at the moment, I can't even see where the next draw is coming from...
18/02/09 @ 19:37
Comment from: deary me [Visitor]
i hope ur wrong cos we need more than 5 wins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
18/02/09 @ 21:35
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